RCT Allow 64 Million Development on Old Flood Plain
Posted by Lewis on the 20th January 2008
The new neighbourhood hospital to be constructed in Mountain Ash has received planning consent from Rhondda Cynon Taf planning committee and work I assume is due to start in the near future.
Can someone explain why has the advice of TAN 15 - Development and Flood Risk 2004 been ignored? http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/wales/government/en/1105619050728.html
Planning Policy Wales, March 2002, show why The Hospital Action Committee is concerned about locating the new hospital on the bank of the River Cynon at Mountain Ash (opposite the Comprehensive School). It is within Zone C2 i.e. an area of the flood plain without significant flood defences where emergency services such as hospitals should not be considered.
But a spokesman for North Glamorgan NHS Trust, said, “The decision to site the new hospital at Mountain Ash followed a long term engagement with the Cynon Valley Forum which began in 2003 and comprises public representatives from the local area.
The proposed £64m Cynon Valley hospital will be built on a site classed as a flood plain in 2002 “where emergency services such as hospitals should not be considered.” Why has Rhondda Cynon Taf planning committee allowed planning consent on a Zone C2 flood plane?
Why is the North Glamorgan Health Trust taking such a risk by placing the new hospital on the river bank? They have gone through the motions of consultation but the vast majority of the public was and is unaware of what is happening.
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maybe after building this one they will build another one near asda in that big field under the bridge lol
Campaigner Calls for Public Outcry
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/208162/campaigner_calls_for_public_o...
Is this the flood plain that always used to flood the road, I can not believe these people are the so thick as to put any buildings in this area, I believe that no councillor should give planning permission, at the end of the day a councillor is elected every 4 years, once elected he can go into that chambers and give permission to build where and when ever he likes, what experince do any of them have none what so ever,
The new hospital in Mountain Ash will be constructed on a floodplain the site is designated a C2 zone in terms of flood risk where no Emergency services and highly vulnerable development should not be considered or allowed by the Development Control Committee at Rhondda Cynon Taf (our local councillors).
Jest over 1 mile away from the hospital site, development was refused because the land is also in zone C2 in the terms of flood risk.
http://www.assemblywales.org/N0000000000000000000000000040499.pdf
You have to ask the question why have the local councillors refused consent for development for 4 houses but allowed a multimillion pound hospital development in Mountain Ash.
(Paragraph 4.2) of TAN 15 states that zone C2 is "used to indicate that only less vulnerable development should be considered subject to application of justification test, including acceptability of consequences. Emergency services and highly vulnerable development should not be considered".
http://www.dcfw.org/media/reports/CynonValleyHospital.pdf
The site is flat and above the flood plain, with a margin of mature trees on the road side and the river edge.
The sunpath and wind study does not show how the findings will influence the design. There is no mention of rainfall, which is a significant factor.
The Panel was told that an ecologist and landscape specialists were involved, with a brief to retain as much as possible of the natural site features. The landscape strategy has yet to be developed in detail, but the grounds are likely to be zoned, with different levels of protection and openness. Although designated a C2 zone in terms of flood risk, it has been established that the site is above the ‘once in a thousand years’ flood level and this has been agreed with the Environment Agency.
I have been down to view the site during the flood warnings that have hit wales, and the river does not look anywhere near the height it would have to be to break its banks. It is a bit dodgy that planning for housing was turned down, but then that the council for you, usually takes a bribe in the right place to get planning anywhere ;). As for the hospital, all the relevant test and modeling have been done and the site has been deemed safe, why would the council want to risk £64 million quid. Is anyone actually pleased they are buliding a new hospital here ?, This will bring a huge amount of jobs and money to the area and I for one cant wait !!
I guess if we wer'nt living in a period of climate change then the location of the hospital would be o.k. The reality is that this part of the world has not yet expereinced anything like the rainfall that is likely to hit us in the future. In Yorkshire last year some areas had a month's rainfall in one day - hence the horrendous flooding. People were swept away anddied in those floods and yet in this part of the world we think it's ok to build a new hospital right on the edge of a river-bank.
Personally I don't believe for a minute that sufficent credence has been given to the potential impact of climate change. If it had there's no way anyone would have agreed to this hospital being built in it's present location. Flash flooding is unpredictable and horrendous with small tributaries and streams becoming raging torrents. Modelling and tests have little relevance where mother nature is concerned and I fear we will all be playing 'catch-up.'
Anyway I don't intend to go on at length - it was all sewn up before the planning committee even met. If an earthquake had been predicted they would have gone ahead. I believe the people in this valley have yet again been shabbily treated. Nothing wrong with the hospital being built in Mountain Ash - it is badly in need of regeneration but I can't imagine any other local authority being foolish enough to build a new hospital on a river-bank given the constant warnings over the dangers of climate change.
Having worked in a number of Hospitals I have noticed the majority have basements for the large amount of services that are required.
Not knowing how the new hospital proposed for Mountain Ash is to be constructed but if a basement is proposed it would be below the river level without any flash floods.
I have been informed the Royal Glamorgan Hospital in Llantrisant has water pumps installed in the basement that run 24 hours a day pumping out water, no doubt if this information is incorrect someone will respond.
You have to ask the question how our local councillors allowed development where water pumps were to be used non-stop 24 hours a day to keep a building dry.
Will the same system be applied and installed in the proposed hospital at Mountain Ash if so is this the right way to build our new hospital. Royal Glamorgan Hospital in Llantrisant is also built next to a river as at Mountain Ash. Below an extract from the Environment Agency website where improvements were made but water pumps had to be installed.
“River Ely, Ynysplwm and Ynysmaerdy - the River Ely and Nant Muchudd watercourses, upriver from the disused railway viaduct above Lanelay, have been improved and weirs constructed to create storage at the estimated 1 in 100 year flow. This is to enable the land to be developed for commercial use and the new district hospital. The control structures have now been adopted for maintenance purposes by the Glamorgan Local Flood Defence Committee.”
http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/acrobat/elyeov.pdf
This is interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7221003.stm
Perhaps if the council are determined to build their hospital on a designated floodplain they will be prepared to gaurantee insurance cover for any flooding that may take place in the future, also they should put this into a sworn affadavit that ratepayers will not have to cover any losses due to any future flooding on the site. At the same time name the insurance company who are involved.
I don't see that the council should have any problem with this undertaking if their plans are watertight. excuse the pun.
Cymro.
Below is taken from a meeting “The Forum had agreed to pursue a Greenfield site on New Road, Mountain Ash”
Would it make any difference or would anyone care if the forum was mislead to know the site is a brownfield site? An old Mountain Ash council rubbish dump a landfill site and I expect no records exist of what was dumped in the site.
RCT are having major problems with old landfill sites they have inherited Brofiscin Quarry, in the village of Groesfaen, near Llantrisant and Nantygwyddon Landfill site, Gelli, Rhondda.
Should we be cautious about spending a vast amount of public money on this brownfield site?
03/54 CYNON VALLEY FORUM
The Acting Director of Planning introduced a report that advised that the sixth Cynon
Valley Forum had taken place on 3rd April 2003 to discuss the preferred site options for the new neighborhood facility and primary care resource centre. The Forum had agreed to pursue a green field site on New Road, Mountain Ash for the neighborhood facility and the development of a stand-alone primary care resource centre in Aberdare.
The Chief Officer of Merthyr and Cynon Valley Community Health Council stressed the importance of public involvement in such issues and was happy to report a positive
http://www.nglam-tr.wales.nhs.uk/docs/trust_board/2003/jun/Meeting.pdf
Plans for £64m Cynon Valley health improvements a step closer
http://wales.gov.uk/news/archivepress/healthpress/2007/1421143/?lang=en
The Pitt Review - Learning Lessons from the 2007 floods
Society Must Take Flooding More Seriously
http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/thepittreview.aspx
Planning authorities must toughen their approach to development control and Building Regulations need major amendment to deal with the threat of flooding, according to Sir Michael Pitt, the man drafted in by the Government to report on the lessons learnt from last year's flooding.
His review will be completed later this year. Sir Michael told a conference on critical national infrastructure that "a new approach is needed for planning and making people aware of the risk of flooding".
Environment Secretary Hillary Benn said: "I welcome Sir Michael's comments on our efforts to deliver all 15 urgent recommendations set out in his interim report. He has acknowledged the progress we've made and the work we've achieved in a relatively short space of time. Over two-thirds of the urgent recommendations have been judged as 'complete' or 'acceptable progress', however, I recognise that there is still some work to be done - and we are getting on with it. We will continue to work with the Pitt review team and our delivery partners across Government."
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk
http://www.sudswales.com/index/news/1933.html
www.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/stellent/groups/Public/documents/Minutes/0... -
Councils urged to take tough line on flooding risk
The Government has published new guidance for planning authorities on dealing with flooding risk when deciding on new housing development.
Five steps are highlighted in a good practice guide written to accompany PPS 25, the planning policy statement on flooding.
Councils are advised to:
*
identify what the flood risks are including river/sea breaches, inadequate drainage and surface water runoff or sewer problems.
*
avoid risk by prioritising non-flood areas first for new development.
*
critically assess whether the need for a new development outweighs flood risk, including following Environment Agency advice.
*
control flooding using sustainable drainage and good design.
*
ensure all new buildings that have to be in areas that might flood are resilient and safe.
Planning minister Caroline Flint said: "We saw very clearly last summer the devastating potential of severe storms. We can't prevent heavy downpours or abandon those already living in flood plains but wherever possible we need to make sure councils are avoiding or reducing the risk of flooding in their communities.
"The Government has put tough planning rules in place for flood risk areas that we need councils to enforce. To help them we are issuing a five-step guide to planning new homes so councils have no excuse for failing to protect their communities."
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/pps25prac...
Lewis,
In the light of the present economic climate do you think that this new hospital will still go ahead?
All the arguments have been put forward regarding climate change, flooding etc. I know that the Aberdare Hospital Committee put forward maps published by the Environment Agency. Experts in these fields have put forward inrefutable evidence to show how very unsiutable this site is.
I could go on at length but most of this evidence is well chronicled elsewhere.
Money is getting short now. What do you think Lewis?
Who knows what is happening the way the assembly throws public money at new buildings for themselves perhaps they can find a few million for Cynon valley to build on a floodplain its about par for the course.
I have sent an e-mail to Vicki Jones Christine’s political researcher I wounder if we will receive a response.
Valkyrie
I have e-mailed Christine Chapman’s assistant on behalf of AberdareOnline at the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff Bay with regard to the proposed development at Mountain Ash. The explanation in the last paragraph is extremely amusing it would appear that Environment Agency Wales say floodwater can determine the difference from a community and a district hospital.
Please can we have a response from our Assembly Member Christine Chapman with regard to the £64 Million pound proposed development of a new hospital that has a start date for constructed later this year within a Zone C2 i.e.an area of the flood plain without significant flood defenses where emergency services such as hospitals should not be considered?
You would be aware the above development would be constructed on an old landfill site where no restrictions for contaminated waste disposal were around when the refuse tip was in use.
Has the Welsh Assembly approved a contractor? And what is the start date for construction?
The response I received below
Please find below a comment from Christine on the proposed hospital at Mountain Ash, which I hope is helpful.
If you need anything further, please don't hesitate to contact me again.
"I have been in close contact with the First Minister, Health Minister and the Trust on progress regarding the new Community Hospital in Mountain Ash.
Back in November 2007, following a meeting with the Chief Executive of the then, North Glamorgan NHS Trust, I asked the Health Minister for clarification on her discussions with Environment Agency Wales and sought assurances regarding the suitability of the site.
The Health Minister has informed me that the Director of Environment Agency Wales confirmed that the site lies outside a 1:1000 extreme flood event scenario and is therefore suitable for development of the type of hospital proposed which is a community, rather than a district hospital. The First Minister recently confirmed that work will begin on the hospital in the Autumn."
I've heard that RCT planning committee has decided against allowing building on the site of the old chicken factory at Robertstown because it's a floodplain! Now beat that for double standards! Who are the developers involved in building the new hospital? Look closely and I'm willing to bet there's more to this than they're letting on.
RCT's planning committee is totally inconsistent anyway. It all depends on who's applying and what political capital there is to be gained. Some weeks ago an application was turned down in Mountain Ash for flats to be built. The local people protested most vigourously against the proposal, and the council took their views into consideration, so it was reported in the CV Leader.
A couple of years ago, against the wishes of the people of Abernant and even the council's own planning officers, permission was granted for an estate to be built on a green field site in Abernant. My suspicious mind immediately got to work and came up with some very disturbing conclusions. So, this means that it all depends on who is applying, not the criteria to be followed as laid down in planning rules.
Apart from all of the issues regarding the actaul site of the hospital, does anyone really want a hospital which doesn't have any doctors. From what I understand the entire hospital will be run by nurses, with visiting, doctor-led clinics. Anything more than a sticking plaster will be referred to Prince Charles or East Glam hospitals - so what is the point. Perhaps I'm being cynical but just how much is the land that Aberdare and Mountain Ash hospitals currently occupy worth???
You know after reading all about the food shortages and the general increase in the cost of everything there seems to me a readymade solution to some of Cynon Valley's woes.
Can you guess what is coming?
The area on which the new hospital is to be built is called the "Paddy Field".
Lets get the rice planted quickly. The OAP's and the unemployed can be press ganged into providing the labour. We could start a new trend. With the climate changing there will be an endless supply of suitable wet fields. I could go on in a semi-humourous vein (pun?) about what most of us think is a rediculous state of affairs.
Maybe some of you could think of other better uses the paddy field could be ussed for.
Apparently, ambulances will now be amphibious landing craft; the physiotherapy department will consist of snorkel diving in the car park, and the hospital itself will be called the Jaques Cousteau Memorial Hospital, with wards named afer fish: Trout Ward; Pike Ward; Perch Ward...etc.
Seriously though, it'll be interesting to see what does actually happen in the event of flooding. Will the hospital itself have to be closed if the waters rise to high? More importantly, in an era of non-accountability of politicians, is it likely that those who gave the green light for this hospital to go ahead will be brought to account and put on trial for gross incompetence and allowing self interest to get in the way of clear judgement?
Watch this space.
Anyone been out with their cameras today to take pictures of the site ,I would imagine with all the rain today it must be mighty soggy there by now.
It could well be used as a Hydrotherapy hospital.
Once they put in the footings where oh where will all the surplus water go.
Has anyone actually stopped to think what this investment will mean for the Valleys. We will now have a state of the art hospital that will bring a huge amount of revenue (via new jobs) into this much deprived part of Wales. Where should this hospital be built? Site locations please...... Sometimes I wonder if anything will make people happy.
There were plenty of sites around to build a new hospital, and it makes no difference to me if it was in Mountain Ash. As you say though, AngelFishSolo, some people would not be happy no matter where it went.
The present site of Aberdare hospital itself could have been used. Also, once cleared of contamination, the old Phurnacite land is big enough to accomodate a large hospital. I'm just wary about the site in Mountain Ash because it has been seen to flood over the years.
It also shows up the double standards of this council in that they would not allow building of a housing estate on the old chicken factory site in Robertstown because according to them it's a floodplain!
It also shows up the double standards of this council in that they would not allow building of a housing estate on the old chicken factory site in Robertstown because according to them it's a floodplain!
I don't see this as double standard, rather an evaluation of perceived risk. The operating model of a hospital is very different to that of a housing estate and as such when a risk assessment is carried out the two models will produce two very different results.
A perceived risk, eh? Building a hospital on a site known to flood in extreme conditions but refusing a development on a site that to my knowledge has never flooded. A risk assessment is carried out and the two models produce very different results? And what results would they be then? Is the area subject to flooding or isn't it?
I'm afraid that you have a higher opinion of experts than I do, AngelFishSolo. I have worked with a lot of experts in the university in Cardiff for the past twenty years, all of them with qualifications coming out of their ears, and my opinion of them is that their expertise is purely theoretical with very little basis in fact, or what we lesser mortals would call common sense.
I can cite example after example of decisions taken by experts that all went pear-shaped. We often quote the fact that the ark was built by amateurs but the Titanic was built by experts!
I can cite example after example of decisions taken by experts that all went pear-shaped
The very fact that you can cite these examples shows in actuality how few there are. We get to hear and read about such disasters because they are infrequent. Eg A car crash will make the local news unless it causes a massive amount of carnage. A plane crash will be reported nationwide if not worldwide. Why? Because planes crash so infrequently where as car crashes common place. Yes, experts make mistakes and we as a nation love to point the finger and condemn them when they do. Too infrequently do we praise them for a job well done.
As for the models I mentioned some of the factors that would be taken into consideration would be evacuation protocols, insurance liability and premiums and the standard cost / benefit analysis.
"The very fact that you can cite these examples shows in actuality how few there are."
I don't think I quite follow your logic here, AngelFishSolo. I'm speaking from my own experience of dealing with so-called experts who screw up time after time.
Also, we hear of so many government departments that lose our personal details or fail to protect the vulnerable, or even lose state secrets, as happened only this week in the MOD losing important usb sticks full of vital information.
In the case of the hospital at Mountain Ash; I have no problem with its location in Mountain Ash. What bothers me is that once again experts have decided that it should be where it's going to be. Under other circumstances I'd accept their judgement, except that judging from the opinions of people who know the area better than I, they are all in agreement that it's an area subject to flooding.
Now, the experts have decided that flooding or no flooding it's the best place for a new hospital. My contention is that I simply do not trust their judgment on this particular issue. To get back again to your acceptance of the risk assessment: This is going to be one hell of a risk if it turns out that they were wrong after all and the people who know the area prove to be right!
I'm not asking for 100% certainty, by the way. That is not possible under any circumstances, but here we have a situation where it has been shown that the area is subject to severe flooding. These experts are prepared to accept that extra risk of the danger of floods. Climate change may make that risk even greater because more rain is forecast for us in the future.
How much nobody can say, but I hope I'm wrong on this issue because we will all suffer for it if these experts turn out to be wrong.
Construction on Cynon’s new hospital due to start
WORK on the new Cynon Valley hospital is expected to start in the next few months.
After much deliberation and consultation, the construction work is about to begin on the vacant land opposite Mountain Ash Comprehensive School.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/south-wales-news/cynon-valley/2008/07/...
Let's all keep our fingers crossed on this one and hope that the higher rainfall predicted does not turn the area into a lake, otherwise the new hospital will suffer the same fate as the lost city of Atlantis, I'm afraid!
If this is the future trend for us as well then I'm even more concerned about the location of our new hospital. This type of extreme weather was predicted by climate change scientists years ago, and it now looks as if it's happening. What happens when we get five days of uninterrupted heavy rain, or even worse?
Floods kill 26 in eastern Europe
ITN - Monday, July 28 11:45 am Floods in Ukraine and Romania have killed 26 people after five days of uninterrupted rain.
In western Ukraine flooding has destroyed homes, farmland and roads and prompted the evacuation of 20,000 residents, officials said.
A senior government official at the weekend described the flooding as the worst in a century.
Water levels remain dangerously high on the Prut and Dnestr rivers, where more than 40,000 homes were flooded.
At least six of the dead were children and two had been struck by lightning.
In neighbouring Romania, the interior ministry said four people died in floods in the northeastern county of Maramures and two are still missing.
Authorities said some of the region's 12,000 evacuated residents are returning to their homes as floodwaters receded.
However, officials said waters coming down from Ukraine could still cause considerable damage.
More than 4,000 police and troops are reinforcing dams with sandbags and food was being distributed to residents.
Meanwhile, heavy rain and flooding has also hit central and western Japan, killing at least three people and leading authorities to issue temporary evacuation orders to thousands in the area.
There have also been reports that 11 people, including some children playing beside the Toga River about 350 miles southwest of Tokyo, have been swept away.
"Has anyone actually stopped to think what this investment will mean for the Valleys. We will now have a state of the art hospital that will bring a huge amount of revenue (via new jobs) into this much deprived part of Wales. Where should this hospital be built? Site locations please...... Sometimes I wonder if anything will make people happy."
I HAVE !, you are not alone in looking forward to the new 64m hospital and all the jobs, money and training it will bring to the valley. I cant wait !!
I dont know if any of the moaners on here have actually been to look at the river whilst we have heavy rain. I have, i went down whilst there was all the flooding 6 months ago. The river is tiny and absolutely no where near reaching the top of the river bank. I think every site next to a river is classed as flood plain now a days until it can be proved safe, which it has, over and over. But the will always those who no better and those who oppose anything they not that keen on. Anyway its going ahead, if you cant look forward to the biggest investment in this area in decades then what will you look forward to :(
Point well taken, Jos, but you've missed the point. I'm all for the new hospital as well, but my worry is about the location. True, it'll be a first class hospital with jobs and training as you say, but my eye is on the future as well. If climate change does assail us with more rain, and let's face it, this year and last have been horrendous, then I'm uneasy about the location being subject to flooding.
Let's hope that you're right in your assessment, and that the hospital will be a great success. I wish it all the best, but I can't help but feel a little uptight about its future prospects. I'm looking forward to it with fingers crossed.
There will be new jobs in the new hospital but don’t forget jobs will be transferred from Aberdare and Mountain Ash Hospitals when they close down and the land sold off for development.
As for construction on a floodplain don’t just look at the hospital site at Mountain Ash look at the wider picture in the valley, at this time the new hospital site is on a flood plain.
Now take a look at the other flood planes less than 2 miles from the site Tirfounder Fields a natural flood plain to name but one where approval has been given for construction. Levels on the land will raised with fill to get the land outside the minimum risk level, therefore you have lost the natural flood plain leaving the river levels to rise sending floodwater further down the valley to the redundant Phurnicite land and when that gets developed the problems moves down towards the new hospital development. If you have seen the site you would be aware the River Cynon bends around the hospital site not good if the river is in flood.
Take a look at the photograph and see just how the River Cynon rises with heavy rain the photograph is Tirfounder Fields a natural flood plain make your own mind up.
http://archive.rhondda-cynon-taf.gov.uk/treorchy/image.php?i=24739&r=2&t...
AM Minister Carwyn Jones said
“Flooding is a natural process and therefore very difficult to predict, but we can at least identify parts of the country which are more vulnerable to flooding than others, and avoid building there.”
A case of saying one thing and doing another.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cf44+6yn&ie=UTF8&ll=5...
Well surely you all would like the train line to be moved as well as that lies about 10 feet lower that the hostpital site and runs along side the river that you expect to flood. Has Asda ever flooded, that is right next to the tirfounder flood plain but even that cheaply built building has managed to stay dry.
I don’t think there is a need to move the railway track it is a known fact that railways flood on a regular basis I do believe the one in Mountain Ash has flooded on many occasions. Engine drivers have a choice weather or not to proceed through a flooded railway track they consider the danger.
I think hospital buildings are a little different to a few railway sleepers and steel rail track, when you think of the outlay cost, in Mountain Ash it will be over £64 Million pound.
The project is due to start in October 2008, as with any other hospital there will be a good deal constructed below ground for services lift pits etc, therefore that area highlighted white in the above map where the new hospital is to be constructed an area of land adjusted by the Environment Agency just to establish the new hospital site is not on a floodplain.
All foundations and service areas below ground level of the hospital will be well below that area of land highlighted in white therefore the hospital will be constructed on a floodplain with a high water table.
“Has Asda ever flooded” to my knowledge Asda has never flooded but I don’t think Asda has any basements and there is a vast amount of difference in the cost say £5 million for construction of Asda to over £64 Million for a hospital complex with all services serving that hospital below ground in the floodplain.